...and dick croaks before the inaugaration __________________ Colin Powell is an excellent choice for VP. I wish Gore would conceed and I make that statement in all my democratic wisdom. This ballot bull**** has gone on long enough and I am sick of the whining from both parties. It has corrupted my faith in the whole damn political system.__________________ What just one friggin' minute!Gore has 350,000 MORE votes. It is Bush that should concede. As far as Dick not getting up (from the hospital bed), he should just get another Dick (armey) so we can still make jokes about the two Dicks who want to be in charge. __________________ Popular Vote is meaningless unless U want 2 change the constitution.Besides that little matter, there were several MILLION uncounted absentee votes in the states where a candidate had a clear majority; absentee votes usually favor republican candidates so U can bet Ur butt that if there was a recount of EVERY VOTE in the country including the several MILLION uncounted absentee votes, Bush would probably win the popular vote ANYWAYS. The Media can Bite ME 4 all the disinforming crap they R spewing out. I Am bettin' they will turn out 2 be the biggest losers in this election __________________ Couldn't have said it better myself renot er for20.__________________ Quote:
In my opinion, if Bush and his little hussy Secretary of State would just sit still and let the whole state do a recount, counting all questionable chads, this would be over and there would be no legal battle, nor any problems. I believe Mr. Gore suggested that as well. (ed: Spelling errors  )[Edited by Ben_Williams on 11-26-2000 at 02:44 PM] __________________ Quote:
__________________ Ben_Williams: "counting all the questionable chads?" yeah, that's such a good plan. its the only way gore can get his lying, deceptive, hypocritical self in the white house. why would something "questionable" or "ambiguous" or whathaveyou ever be considered good and right? i mean yeah, it happens, but the outcome is bad. take for example eating meat with a quality and safety that is "questionable." if its questionable, do you think you'd eat it? hopefully not, unless you like getting sick. and cell phones for instance. we don't know 100% if they really do cause tumors, but there is speculation. they cause cancer; no they dont. why would you want to take the chance? many people do for the sake of convenince and lots of other reasons, but still. its dangerous. why not just forget about them and stop using them if you are worried about getting cancer. ok well i think i've sort of got off topic, but still. questionable ballots shouldn't be counted. its absurd to try to figure out how a person, whom you know nothing about, voted by the depth of a dimple! craziness!__________________ Al Gore is a "Chad Molestor"At leat if Bush/Chenny win, the 2nd ammendment will be protected. __________________ First of all, I'd like to once again publicly thrash the idiot who allowed the punch-type ballot with chads to exist. Secondly, you're missing the fundamental point that there is no statistical relationship between questionable votes and presidential candidates - so I find your statement "its the only way gore can get his lying, deceptive, hypocritical self in the white house." sounding pretty silly and childish. Additionally, while I'm sure you can provide me with explicit examples to back up your bitter diatribe, I hope you're well aware that if anything, they more than apply to Gov. Bush, and I can show you specific examples to back up my arguments). Do you deny the voter's obvious intent to vote for a specific candidate because the chad wasn't completely removed from the ballot? Do you deny that that system is inherently flawed? Voters - a lot of voters - were denied their say in this election because the chads did not completely detach from the ballot. Granted, if a ballot has several dimples, you don't count it - but if a ballot has one unmistakeable dimple and no others, then it's a vote. Furthermore, ballots where the chad was hanging from the ballot should most definitely be counted - it's not the voter's fault that when they punched the hole the chad did not completely detach.It frightens me that people are unwilling to count ballots where an obvious choice has been made - this nonsense surpasses party lines and comes right down to the fact that people deserve by right a say in their presidential election and they are being denied that fundamental right. In any election, that is completely intolerable, and in an election as close as this where it comes down to an incredibly small number of votes, hesitation is completely unacceptable. Returning to party lines, I find it very disturbing that the Republicans seem far more concerned that their candidate has won, and much less concerned with actual votes, votes that could take the election away from them. If Florida's votes follow the trend that we've been seeing in the rest of the state, Bush should still win. So then, what are you afraid of? That a little technicality will steal your president away? I'm sick of this garbage - votes much be counted, the will of the people must be shown, and we must have a president. This childish squabbling must end and I will not have a president - be it Bush OR Gore - that was elected on a technicality. Quote:
__________________ Ben_Williams your premise is unsound. 1. Don't get upset about people name-calling you candidate, you started it by calling Bush's Sec. of State a hussy. 2. All politicians are lying, deceptive, and hypocritical. It's part of the job, to pretend otherwise is foolish. 3. The only places that dimpled and hanging chad balots are being counted is in areas that strongly support Gore. The counties that support Bush are not having recounts so he is not getting the same benefit. If all the counties were doing the same thing it wouldn't be an issue. 4. If Gore wins it will be on a technicality, because he lost the first count. If Bush wins he will have won despite a technicality. If Cheny is not able to serve as our VP then McCain would be the best choice for VP. He will allow Bush to increase his popular support. Both from liberals and concervatives. It was a fluke that Bush beat him out in the first place, McCain would have stomped Gore into the ground. Ben_Williams, before you start accusing me of some horible bias and crimes against humanity, I voted for a third party candidate. Both big party machine candidates are poor choices (to put it mildly). __________________ Quote:
But she is a hussy. Come on, admit it. You know you want to  In all seriousness however, I wasn't so much upset at the name-calling as I was at the fact that Gore gets a lot of crap from people in general for wanting a recount, even when the results show overwhelmingly (overwhelmingly in that there was such a great amount of change) that that wasn't only a good idea but a necessary one to completely account for all computer-related error.Quote:
Most politicians are lying, deceptive, and hypocritical types of people. To pretend that most politicians are not these things may be foolish, but to imply that they are traits necessary in a politician is frightening and disturbing. Quote:
It wouldn't? Then why aren't recounts happening throughout Florida? The answer, is of course, because Bush doesn't want things to change - as it stood at the close official certified count, he was declared the winner. His campaign slogan might as well be the adage "Don't fix it if it's ain't broken" (I could take a cheap shot here at his abuse of the English grammatical system or just good old Southern twang in general but I won't ). Don't you think it's a little odd how many votes Gore picked up when they did the recount? Doesn't that bother you slightly? It concerns me, as I wonder why happened the first time around, and it concerns Bush, but he isn't responding in the correct way. The correct way (of course this is in my opinion, obviously) would be to be concerned about heavily Republican counties - I mean, if there was such a gross error with Gore's votes, there's more than a likely chance that something was wrong with Bush's votes. Quite possibly, by doing a recount in counties that favor him, he could pick up a similar amount of votes and things would be the same. However, that's the great unknown. By his decision to try to keep things as they were and stifle those votes that could quite possibly decide the election, he leaves himself open to lots of criticism, some of which is warranted. Why doesn't he want to see actual vote totals? Is he nervous that things will change? Anxious because he wants to find out who's president and this will take to long? Some have suggested that if he were to do a recount, he might not gain nearly as many votes as Gore did - and what would that mean? Why was there an overwhelming amount of error in Democratic votes but not in Republican votes? Since he refused a recount in strongly Republican counties, all of this is theorized and can't be proven, but the image that remains, whether true or not, is that George W. Bush is a man who cares solely about winning, and doesn't give one red cent about how he got there.Quote:
I don't mean to be rude, but I'm perplexed by your logic here. For Gore to win, he'll have to get enough votes in the recount to surpass Bush. If that happens, that's not technicality, it's reality - the reality of the fact that the voting system is so flawed that it requires this much time and effort to find out who our president is. It will show politicians and people the somewhat-problematic nature of the Electoral College. It will reflect the reality of the fact that Gore is clearly ahead in the popular vote, and therefore should obviously be president, if we truly live in a democratic society where the will of the people is the law. Conversely, many would say the Bush getting elected due to the Electoral College is a big-ass technicality due to a dated an unnecessary system. Quote:
I'm not going to accuse you of anything - I'm greatly concerned with our system of politics and I was deeply disappointed when Ralph Nader didn't get enough votes to ensure funding for a third party. Even including Buchanan and Nader, I'm not happy with any of the four combos, but that's the way politics have to be - my views and opinions are not shared by the nation and for one politician to cater to me and no one else would cost him/her the election. Bush, Gore, Nader, and Buchanan all have their faults, some more than other, but the object of the game for me is to elect the person whose policies I most agree with, and the policies that I don't agree that must exist are tolerable. I find that in Gore, while other citizens find that in other candidates. As a very opinionated and stubborn person, it bothers me that people don't share my views because I can't conceptualize why they would feel differently. However, that's a pretty huge lesson of life - that not everyone or even a majority of people in the case of this election feel the way I do, and that's something I have to accept. Coming back to the question of Florida, I can honestly say that as if it is clear to me that George W. Bush won the election - if it's clear that he did - I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with his presidency. However, due to the massive amounts of irregularities and possible "illegal" legal action on the sides both parties, that's not something I can accept right now. __________________ Ben Williams is raisin' the roof on you knobs!  __________________ my 2 cents...Gore won the popular vote. However, thats not the way the Constitution reads, so that shouldn't get him President. Should the electoral college be gotten rid of? I think so, but that is a separate issue... They counted once, Bush won. They counted twice, Bush won. (first recount) They counted three times, Bush won. (absentees) They counted four times, Bush won. (hand count) Even if Gore wins another count, isn't that 4-1? hehe... Dimple issue - I know I've thought about doing something in the past, and then not doing it. Just cause theres a dimple, doesn't mean they meant to vote for Gore. I think its very plausible that people decided not to vote for either... I know my friend was torn and started selecting one candidate (probably put a dimple) and then selected another... Hanging chads - they're votes, most of them were counted, and if they weren't counted, they should be. "confusing butterfly ballot" - anyone who couldn't figure that ballot out, shouldn't be allowed to vote. the courts - The constitution states its up to the legislature to determine how they count the votes. It is actually their legal right to judge the votes how they feel is appropriate, not the courts. hand recounts - no, they're not more accurate then machines in general. have you ever tried counting 300 of something twice and getting the same number? Now try 6 million. Have you guys seen them count these ballots? It takes 30 seconds for each ballot!!! 30 seconds times 6 million ballots equals 3 million minutes, equals 50,000 hours, equals 2083 days, equals a few years... ballots in general - lets have local networks with no outside connection so noone can hack at the polling centers and you click your choice... when the poles close, they call up and say the results, no errors possible. who should be president - bush, gore needs to give it up so we can get on with it... he tried, i agreed with the first recount, but now its getting ridiculous... who will be president - clinton for the next 4 years till they decide who really won __________________ What of the military votes?I'm personally offended that they would consider throwing out military votes becasue they might tend to go for one political party. The military is in civilian control and therefore cannot be a political for either party. But for one party to attack the military by blatently disregarding the votes of the men and women serving overseas, thats just wrong. That goes beyond party affiliation, thats attacking those that preserve national security. __________________ When it comes right down to it..GORE JUST NEEDS to accept the fact HE LOST the election and let everyone get on with their lives..I got this(below) in an email today...take a look.SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT MYTH: There are more than 10,000 votes in Miami-Dade that have never been counted. David Boies: "[T]here are over 10,000 ballots that have never been counted once for the presidency of the United States." [Today Show, 11/27/00] FACT: * Every ballot in Miami-Dade was counted at least twice - once on election night and again during the automatic recount. * In every election, there are a significant number of ballots that are cast by voters without choosing a candidate in every race on the ballot, including races for President. For example, in this election, 5% of the voters in Idaho, 3.9% of the voters in Illinois and 3.6% of the voters in Wyoming cast a ballot without registering a vote for President. * The 10,000 votes (actually 9,000 according to their filing) about which the Gore campaign has been complaining constitute only 1.6% of the ballots cast in Miami-Dade. These ballots were counted - twice; they merely registered no vote for President * This reality reflects common sense: a voter may want to vote for a candidate for the Senate, House or other office, but be undecided about the choice for President. In particular, a voter who usually votes for candidates from one party may vote for local or statewide candidates, but be uncomfortable with his or her party's choice for President and yet unwilling to vote for the other party's candidate. So he or she might cast a ballot without marking a choice for President. MYTH: If you counted all the votes that already have been counted in some of the recount, Gore would actually be ahead by 9 votes. FACT: * Democrats get to this number by adding unreported and unofficial votes from the late manual recount in Palm Beach and from the partial manual recount from Miami-Dade, and by subtracting the valid military overseas ballots and some of the certified votes from Nassau County. * The Florida Supreme Court set a deadline of 5 p.m. on Sunday for completing manual recounts, almost tripling the statutory time period for counting mandated by Florida's Legislature. * Palm Beach did not complete its manual recount by the Supreme Court's deadline. Miami-Dade returned to its original decision of not proceeding with a manual recount. * The 157 "interim gain" for Gore in Miami-Dade came from a selective recount of the most Democrat precincts. Gore won these selected precincts by approximately 75% to 25%, while Gore won the entire county only by 53% to 46%. It would be unfair to use this interim change without counting Republican precincts, too. * Precincts in Miami-Dade, including those with predominantly Hispanic and Cuban American voters, favored Bush. The Gore approach would treat these minorities in a discriminatory fashion. * Military overseas ballots that were valid under Florida and federal law should be counted. Counties recognized this and counted them. Even Joe Lieberman said that such military ballots should not be rejected. & Even if you add the 157 interim gain for Gore in Miami-Dade and the final manual recount of net 192 for Gore in Palm Beach (as reported by the NYT), and then also subtract the over 50 votes that belong to Bush in Nassau County (see below), Bush still wins by well over 100 votes. MYTH: Miami-Dade would have conducted a manual recount if not for the Republican "mob" that "intimidated" the canvassing board. KLAIN: "We think already almost 160 votes were counted in Dade County before the mob stopped the count.... But I think that to say that a mob can storm a counting facility, stop a count, and then that's going to provide the end because a partisan of the Bush campaign, Ms. Harris, refuses to accept returns and cuts off the counting, I don't think that's the kind of end that we have to American elections." [GMA, 11/27/00] FACT: * The record shows that the crowd was reacting to the Board's decision to move the recount behind closed doors, where it could not be observed by the public or the media, and to limit the recount to only a select set of the votes. * No Board member mentioned the protests as a factor in the decision, and Judge Leahy of the Board has already stated clearly that he was not intimidated by the crowd. ???? The police made no arrests, received no assault complaints, and did not even instruct the crowd to desist. The crowd was quieted promptly. MYTH: In Nassau County, the board violated Florida law by adding votes from earlier tabulations that had been rejected by the board as illegal. FACT: * On election night, all the votes were counted, but during the machine recount, 218 ballots were accidentally separated from the rest, and not counted. As a result, Bush received 124 fewer votes and Gore received 73 fewer votes than on election night. * After the recount, the Nassau County Board supervisor discovered her mistake, and tried to correct it. Because the Supreme Court of Florida had held the date open for final certification until Sunday at 5:00 p.m., the Division of Elections informed the supervisor that she could revise the count to make it accurate. * The Board (2 Democrats and 1 Republican) voted unanimously to certify the original election night count - which included the 218 ballots - rather than the machine recount total (which mistakenly omitted those ballots). ******************************************************* QUOTES: Mr. Gore, the Wheel has Turned and it's Time for this to End... "I think the vice president should take the high ground and hand it over," Rep. Julia Carson, D-IN - Associated Press interview conducted over the phone, 11/27/00. "Mr. Gore, End It Now," - Editorial headline in the Chicago Tribune, 11/27/00 "Enough is enough, For nation's welfare, Gore should accept loss," - Editorial headline in the San Diego Union-Tribune, 11/27/00 "...I have grave doubts about whether it is wise for the country, for the purposes of just healing all of the wounds, for the vice president to continue to pursue and to contest the results in Florida." - Former Clinton/Gore Labor Secretary Robert Reich "His determination to keep fighting, even after Sunday night's formal declaration that George W. Bush won the presidential race in Florida, presents the increasingly unappealing portrait of a man who wants to be a winner at any cost." - Chicago Tribune, Editorial, 11/27/00 "The only thing to be gained by contesting the Florida balloting, as Sen. Joseph Lieberman vowed last night to do, is to put the nation through a divisive ordeal that could provoke a constitutional crisis unprecedented in modern times." - San Diego Union-Tribune, Editorial, 11/27/00 Palm Beach Canvassing Judge Charles Burton: "...going into this, we felt that whatever standard we came up with...it had to be fair, it had to be geared towards achieving a fair result, not geared towards achieving a certain result... "...the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, everybody agreed to the standard we had applied in reviewing these ballots. It was only after about four days into it that the Democratic Party went back to court to try and, you know, basically have us change that standard because I guess they realized they weren't getting enough votes." - ABC's "Good Morning America," 11/27/00 Mavi forum |
Sunday, June 10, 2007
What if Bush wins...
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